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The Berman Buzz

EP8 - Jim Bado - Workplace Development - Creating ownership thinking in your ESOP

[0:11] Welcome everyone this is the ESOP guy and we are on this journey to an ESOP this podcast and our YouTube channel actually is designed to be resource, to help you navigate through the complexities of an ESOP. [0:24] So I wanted to start off before we jumped into today's episode to announce the upcoming panel discussion and presentation that we're going to have. It's called the anatomy of an ESOP we're going to have that on March 30th at 11:00 Eastern time to 12:15 Eastern Time, so if you're interested in that go to our website at journey to an and you can just click the registration button I think it's going to be a phenomenal webinar because we're going to have, experience the ESOP attorney we're going to have an experience valuation firm we're going to have an experienced ESOP trustee, and I'll be on that too so it'll be it'll be great so look I'll look for you to register for that if you have an interest in it. So then as well as all of our other podcasts you can find those on journey to an ESOP. So so please do that one of the as we think about today one of the major issues. That exists in terms of how we set up an ESOP is is really coming back to the to the. Idea that people a lot of people are looking to the ESOP to support. And strengthen their retention of key employees and all their employees really just to continue to be able to meet the demands of growth. One of the the things I've seen this week alone as I've had eight meetings with companies and that seems to be every single one of these meetings that seems to be one of the things on everybody's mind when they're thinking about and now every sap. [1:51] You know client and every ESOP transaction is unique and different but this is as a very big driver for why companies want to go through the ESOP processes is to retain their people. [2:04] And you know one of the things I always tell people is that it is not. You know it you have a good culture Aesop's do a great job of making a better culture but there is work that has to be done to establish an ESOP culture and to really strengthen your employee group and so, I wanted to get into this topic today with Jim bado with workplace development Jim Welcome to our podcast. [2:28] Thanks for having me feel glad to be here great thank you so much so so we're going to Jim's here because his his company what they do is they specialize in helping ESOP companies go through that process of building a strong culture, and getting the most out of that issue of retaining people motivating people building strong ESOP cultures so so with that Jim can you give us a kind of a brief background on yourself of course how your company, does kind of direct itself and be a solution to that issue. [3:02] Yeah great appreciate it so we're Place development specialize in communication training ownership culture development for the ESOP companies, and you'll feel I've been at it for more than three decades now work with companies across the country write it I think maximize the benefits of employee ownership just like you're saying right so how do we get the most out of this benefit how do we engage people on their jobs every day, and get them to think and act like business people write in their jobs to help us improve the company and better themselves. [3:31] And I think one of the unique things that we bring to it is that's all we do so we're 24/7 on communication training ownership culture development, you know we understand the legal side we've been in for so long right we understand the role of trustee we get the valuation stuff, get the admit we don't doing that stuff we're just coming in to help you make the most, all of your employee ownership plan and I think we're unique because we're like the only firm that just does that there's other firms in the space but they you know they do nonprofit consulting which is great, they may have a membership organization which is good they may be professors we're just 24/7 Consultants d-sub companies and, I can say this I think we're kind of Kool-Aid drinkers out of Phil we love it yeah it's all about I think we're all Kool-Aid drinkers at this point so in the people there some people that listen to this podcast like you know all the time so I know they're drinking the Kool-Aid but but there's a reason because it's kind of it is true and so, I love what you guys do and one of the things I was going to point out is your in Ohio right. [4:32] Yeah yeah and so you guys have probably have clients all over the country and how does that work from a geographic support standpoint how does that work in terms of helping your clients. [4:43] Yeah we do have clients all over all the country and so couple ways one is you know we'll go on site and work for client if that's how they want to do things and of course we do a lot of virtual Services also you know later today I'll be doing a virtual roll out for a company on California, just because that's the way they want to do it you know covid is changed that Dynamic also to but we also provide support services kind of back office where clients, utilize our materials on to customize them and it comes directly from the client so we're not on that we got video production capabilities. And I'm not going to say we're video house bill you know like we're not going to want to Netflix kind of thing but communicate you know your statement or you know to help you on the rollout the announcement she want a consistent message from leadership, we can we can do that for people to an S I think it's like kind of companies are working with right how do they get the most out of this thing when he set it up. Yeah and that's one of the reasons I wanted to do this episode because what I see is there's a lot of professionals that are doing the support to set it up you know we have. [5:47] You know what I do in terms of ESOP formation the attorneys in creating the plan documents to trustees and doing the transaction but what you don't see which I think is such an important part of what you guys are doing is is a lot of companies, that are geared to that and having that as like 24/7 like you said a specialty. I believe it's a huge need because I've done the rollout meetings I've gone to my clients when we finish and it's a celebration. But then there's this without what you guys do there's this Gap that happens that has to be filled and. You know so before we get into the filling the Gap lie you know tell me a little bit like how do you guys approach the rollout meeting what significant things do you want to try to communicate it that that first stage where we announced these up and everybody's like wow you know where an ESOP what's that. [6:37] Yeah great question to me there's three things you want to work on in terms of the rollout and before I share this me just go back for a second because Phil you know this you're working with people from the set up the ESOP you got a great process of use with people to get them through it. Most companies that we work with so the leadership has been working on this thing for six months or sometimes two or three years yeah but the ESOP in place right that's true so. By the time they get to the rollout they understand it they get it they know what it's all about. [7:05] But they forget often that the employees don't know anything right they haven't heard anything about the ESOP they're starting at Square One, so there were lots of great opportunity to make the most of it and you only get one shot at it right only have one shot yeah roll this thing out so you want to think about it to me the three big issues there are, okay number one why did we do it it's people are like what yeah excuse my Ohio French but what the hell is this thing when I hear it right yeah wow why do we do this thing number one. [7:37] Then the second thing people go to is okay what's in it for me with this esab plan right you know why should I care and how's it going to benefit me and then the third thing and I think these are these and I'll talk more in a second about this but, is Okay now what's changed. [7:53] You do feel that the typically nothing changes an ESOP right which one of the great things about it this great continuity of the business and. You know our joke is always the table, the guy that told the bad joke is still going to tell you the bad joke every day right and yeah exactly that's the bad breath that you know he's still going to have the bad breath you know and yeah yeah you know and some people like one of the things I always tell people to it's like look you know it's like what is an ESOP like for you to be an owner, it does it mean you can go now into your you know boss's office and sit in this chair and say Hey you know I'm an owner you know and they start tell him so I don't mean that to me is important too because there's a reality to it that they need, yeah it's great and what's in it for them is great. [8:40] What what is like you said what is changing sometimes you just got to like make sure they have people this is this is like day-to-day still the same you know but is still phenomenal news and this is why. [8:52] Exactly I agree that roles responsibilities discussion you know we do a lot of work in that area you're exactly right because, people come in with their own notion of ownership and typically it so my house on my car you know and they bring that to the company and they hear you're an employee owner and they assume things yellow and some people are on track with kind of like, I'm assuming it's going to be about us working together to build wealth you know and things aren't going to change but other people have that. I'd say this way you know I've always hated Jim bado I can probably fire that SOB now here's my chance on the owner right yep and so and then that leads in our perspective and you know in our experience fill in the three decades we've been doing this, Thunder expectations you know I thought it was this. [9:37] It's not that and Leadership can have those two you know that hey I thought people would buy into this thing you know you're getting the ESOP playing for free, what do they get about for a refill I understand this and they don't people don't because it's confusing to them it's complicated its doesn't make me get something for nothing somebody's Ox is getting gored yeah it must be mine, and and you're and you're fighting through this the all the misconceptions of Aesop's and what people you know think that they know about him I had a lunch meeting with a client yesterday. And one of the people that's not an owner was like you know he keeps seeing this and hearing this affordability of the ESOP you know and so he kind of gathered from that well. That they have to buy the stock and I'm like I don't know where that came from but I know there's a lot of misconceptions about esops that have to be that have to be kind of set you know hey tell me your question so we can really talk about what's true and what's not true. [10:34] Absolutely I agree a hundred percent you know anything rolls thing Phil we like to do and I just did this last week with the leadership team at a company. You're like a walkthrough okay what does it mean to be an owner in our place let's actually Define that put something together, and then once the leadership gets on the same page let's go to the employees and ask them what they think because. You know you and I both know that if we're creating something we're going to buy into it more rather than somebody dictating to us you know here's what it means and my experience interesting thing that I found in kind of doing that activity. Is that. People come up with the stuff that the leadership wants you know it's being accountable it's being a team player it's serving our customers its Building Wealth long-term mhm, they're going to cope with the same things that you as a leader you know want them to come up with. [11:24] If you give a chance though to generate themself yeah exactly we hold each other accountable to it right rather than oh the boss told me this is right you know, anyways it's that culture change right that's what it's about the culture change it is about that culture change the way when you look at so if we move past the rollout and you look at what's ideal for a company a brand-new ESOP company in terms of, the work that you guys do in like in terms of how often. Do you like what would you recommend to somebody saying like how often should I talk about the ESOP and what should we do specifically in the first year. Outside of the rollout meeting that would be impactful to us what are you guys seeing in that level. [12:05] Yeah great question so for us I think talking about it at least once a quarter. This is important especially that first year and you gotta work on repetition because. We all learn is as adults through repetition and we also learn as adults on things that we need to know. So we're not interested in stuff that really doesn't apply to us so as you do the communication you think about okay where's this person's had a tarp, no boys in general and how do you get them information that connects to them and they can understand on a personal level and we have some clients that do more than that you know they're going on once a month of like a little. Yeah we do kind of email or text esab nuggets we call it right to people just to remind them this is in there or a quarterly newsletter, and I want to emphasize just people, make sure that's personalized or customized to your company Mmm Yeah right because people want to know about your ESOP sure he's option general or interesting but hey how does this thing affect me again you know why do we do it. Pause vesting work at our company how do I earn shears here right what's our formula for participate all those kind of things that affect me rather an ESOP some general yeah looking toward me Phil. That first statement racing want to build toward that first statement that I think that's a great point to really drive it home right because I got something I got an itch to scratch. [13:27] I'm looking at you know what you find with their people that have first statements a big yeah so let me and let me open that up a little bit deeper because people again sometimes they listen and they don't even know what we're saying about, like what that means so so you have any company that goes through ESOP that means they sold their company now the ESOP owns it whether it's a partial or 100%. [13:47] And then in the first year what's going to happen is there's going to be an allocation of stock from the ESOP trust into the participants accounts. Which are your employees and then at one point of the year they're going to the third party administrators going to issue a statement that shows how much stock. That they have and what is it worth and so the very first statement is as Jim's alluding to is is this you know tremendous opportunity. For it now to take on a reality like we've talked about it you know and someone like Jim is maybe explain why and what's in it for you but at the same time. [14:23] It's not real until they actually see that right and so so that's what it is that's what we mean by the first. [14:30] That's a great explanation because and then seeing the first stock value right and we always talk about it as kind of a stake in the ground yeah and you know Phil if you're doing you know if you guys could borrow money or doing a leveraged ESOP. Yeah partial or majority typically that first value is going to be low mmm and so we like to share examples with companies okay hey you only got. Thousand or sometimes a few hundred bucks in your account because value is low. [14:56] But you stay with us he's going to build for you and we like to talk about hey example like these guys work seven boxes share your one your for they were thirty two dollars. And you see that fell right how fast it can it goes fast relief for people it is crazy so I always liked the second year because the second year we have one we have the first statement and then we have the next statement and then we can show the delta. Hopefully the Delta is positive you know now most of the time it's going to be and I say that kind of like you know tongue and cheek because, the debt is going to be paid down you're going to be paying down debt and that's going to be you're going to be guaranteed some level of increase I have a client who had. You know with a with a lower Enterprise Value from the first year to the second year but they had debt paid down so they were still up by two bucks a share. Yeah and a significant yeah it's significant this year they're up by nine dollars this year so it's going to be it's going to be a lot of fun when that all comes out and you know and so part of that I guess for you guys is connecting them. [15:59] In the sense of hey this says True Value to you and when they when you can start seeing as an employee build in terms of dollars then I think it makes a lot of real sense you know. But your job is to help get there before you know through the whole process right yeah exactly and we talked about building a line of sight that's we always talk about so, what's my line of sight for my daily job you know to our company success and then how does that connect to the ESOP and stock value and for each company that's going to be a little bit different right in terms of making that happen and for us off and it's some. [16:34] Talk about things people do their job every day so successful ship right let's watch that because that's going to drive right our success as a company or a call center right kind of call volume drop calls that kind of thing or if you're in a manufacturing environment you know safety or you know scrap re that kind of thing right so what are those things I have control over in my daily job, let's have people understand those better and how they drive our profitability right and that creates our stock value so it's kind of build those things together at those linkages Phil yep tell people get it I like I like the line-of-sight concept I think that's really a good way to. [17:10] Verbalize that like that's those are great words to describe it what do you do with you got a blue collar company versus a light color company went in, you know we kind of know all know what that means right so you have one company that's all educated college degrees and then you have another company who they work really hard with their hands and they're you know they're there in the manufacturing plant or whatever how do you approach those two, types of demographics yeah great question so for us what we do typically you know we've got a process we use with companies, um but we like to do is go in and talk to the company, and kind of assess where they at you know based on our experience or three decades doing this so given where you're at you know where do you want to go with the ESOP plan how does it link up to your goals as a company your mission all that kind of stuff, and build a customized program based on that you know kind of roles going to be, and so to me both those work forces its kind understanding where they're at. [18:09] And also talking to people at their level so and to me that's critical right you don't talk down to somebody no terms of their understanding of it right, because maybe in the white collar baller environment they got more of a sense of finance and understanding how things work as opposed to the blue-collar environment, but those blue colored folks are just as smart capable great at their jobs right just like the white collar people, so you know companies need to be careful on that right how you kind of pitched the message. We like to a lot of Hands-On stuff with both those crowds yeah because people I think learn by doing you know and going through activities and tangible stuff. Rather than you know how its track this thing is full right yeah Australian to get a handle on it so make it tangible, yeah I mean so let's talk about that a little deeper because I love of some of the things you guys are doing that I think people really should do like when you when you talk about doing activities with employees for some companies that's a bit scary because they're like oh no I'm opening up a can of worms like I don't want, you know some of it is I'm hesitant to do all that because I just want people to do their job and I don't want to make this, you know we were so so that could be an issue but when you do those things I think I agree totally with you like people are more excited because they're built your building teamwork. [19:33] You're connecting them back to the organization so they feel a part of this whole company. So what are some things that activities like as you guys would go through that to really spur that type of thought process. [19:48] Yes what if I just did this yesterday actual with a company as we have a Hands-On game which you would love Phyllis is so much fun work. People run an ESOP companies who put him in a team right to build a teamwork communication that kind of stuff, and they sit around a game board which we have a diagram we use to make the ESOP tangible to. [20:06] And we run them through a real simple financial statement because he want Concepts right I think concepts are more important, goodness isn't even dark or even you know who cares but the concepts important and we give them an ugly money and they make decisions for the company okay so hey we're leverage we're going to repay the loan, you know if we don't do that course there's gonna be consequences us as a company exactly raise wages or pay a bonus we give them like all these decisions about how to run the company. And then when they pay back the loan we actually allocate paper shears, so their accounts inside the game boards they see physically how as we pay down the loan I gained ownership in the company. [20:46] And then based on their decisions they get a new value right in the company they go into your to hmm and then different things happening here too. Um at the end of your to fill somebody's retiring so the team has figure out where do we get the cash to pay out this person so, that's been a huge winner for us because you get all the mechanics of how the ESOP Works big picture on the business even repurchase obligation, without us lecture about it ya like it ya running a company right and then we back it out and say okay. Give it all that now how does this affect us right how you impact in your job and people often back way like. Wow this is like more complicated fall that totally I'm glad we have the management yeah totally yeah if you've ever given a presentation and you look out and you know you, have a PowerPoint slide and people are just kind of like nodding off and like oh man you know repurchase liability is is kind of boring, you know if if it's not affecting you emotionally it's like okay I heard what you said but I have no idea what you're talking about so I'm going to go to sleep for a while but what you guys I mean I just think that's a phenomenal way to, present that type of stuff, well it's not like you're just lecturing somebody with a PowerPoint here's definition of what an ESOP is you know so so I'm excited about that I don't first off I don't see that a lot and companies I think what you're doing is unique. [22:12] And very value-added like because I think people come out of that they must feel different you know in terms of connected to this whole thing and. [22:22] You know how do you measure that like when you when you do something like that how do you guys measure the response rate or whatever do you guys are you able to measure it. [22:31] Yeah we could we do sometimes with clients and depends on where the client is right from what they want to invest in, we do pre surveys before we start right and then we kind of do Post surveys to track what knowledge information people have gained from the process and the other thing we do know that's That's Amore take a little bit of time for their activity, so we develop like shorter things to for annual meetings to kind of supplement what's going on in that meeting where we can engage people I'll give you an example. Got a call from one of our long-term clients for their enemy last year. And they said hey we're having a challenge with safety their manufacturing company right so you know safety issues things like that can you guys develop an activity. That would help people connect that the stock value right because those those costs real right and Company mmm so we work with them to build a customized activity, what people actually have to make choices about whether to invest in safety or roll the dice with big fuzzy dice bellied love turns out all the time investing safety yeah the different outcomes came out based on what their decision was and you know they had money saved to spend it invest in safety, only goal is to make the most money yeah and just like in a real company and I think this was the one of the winners about this project. [23:44] Sometimes even best and safety. And nothing happens you kind of avoid something that might happen but you don't really see the impact of it and other times you don't invest in safety and nothing happens yeah right right guy doesn't trip or whatever the gal, doesn't you know hit the machine anyways, so that was the activity and then what we did to drive it home was we took that to the actual company numbers and we said okay over the last five years here's how much we've. Spent a worker's comp right on accidents on things like that. And what's the additive to stock value if none of that happened hmm actually for these guys almost 20%. [24:28] Increase in value but I would have my account yeah right wow that's great yeah the statement those where the statement said okay this guy has a strong number this guy has 20 grand is a count he'd have 24 Grand. [24:43] Plus people be safer right in our company and all that kind of stuff too yeah which is the right thing to do so that makes sense it's coming and I think that's so cool like tell you so yeah I mean what because every company has a different issue, get out and so but but to be able to customize. [24:59] And train and teach people that way with games and you know using games I think is such a powerful way to communicate, I just think that that is tremendously valuable you know because everybody's going to have different types of issues. And then you know as they go and they grow of course maturity sup company things are going to change over time and so do you guys that you can do that is is really cool. And not have this normal like hey this is what it is you really outside the box you know so so you're let me tell me about your team a little bit I know you're obviously. Pretty. You know jazzed up about the whole thing you've been doing for three decades how do you deliver on this in it's not more a commercial more it's just to see kind of the. You know when you get down to it how do you deliver something like that you know that you and some other people. [25:52] Yeah exactly that lets us do it you know there's three of us so we're not a big organization on purpose because we want to be I think I like you, Hands-On with the clients right doing stuff delivering it and so on that can the kind of development thing typically a company would contact us, and we talk to them about their situation right because I'm working on a retreat right now with Cummings has an ESOP for 20 years right and so. You know they're like okay what can we do to energize people and one of the things they're concerned about because of the. New environment were in with Kobe right all the virtual communication. So we're doing an activity and then we're going to connect it to kind of digital virtual Communications and how you can be more effective as an owner, using certain behaviors right activities in that virtual environment to help us be more successful and so our team will be involved in helping to develop that create it. Right will pilot it before we actually do the event to see you know how does it work on does not work. [26:51] And they will deliver it to the participants and that's a one-day retreat. We're running for probably I think we're bringing the whole company together on that so it's going to be anywhere from 150 to like 200 people. Somebody show up for that hmm no no what was the res up committee on it too so we got these subcommittee involved. To help get their ideas and feedback on it and developing it with that team jointly so it's there's as much as it's our Earth yeah because that's that's our goal right to empower people and companies, yeah and it needs to be there at the end of the day I mean they can't just have somebody come in every time they have an issue but so that's that's very interesting like 20 or ESOP, what that whole virtual environment thing is just. Changed everything right so you're seeing a lot of companies I'm sure like you said you do roll out meetings even with the California company virtually, how do you make that as successful or is it is it so difficult because you know when you're together in person it's obviously there's a chemistry there. But when people are on their resume, you know okay I'll check my email real quick and I'm 90 I'm listening but I'm not really you know yeah I got my wife wants milk or whatever and I gotta go to the grocery store later so how do you you know and I'm saying that's our hard thing to do anyway so how do you use that Medium to make it to make it impactful. [28:14] Yeah that's a great question so we try to do the same kind of things that Medium right so we're having. [28:20] People respond to questions reason the polling tool or giving away you know spiffs and prizes during the activity anything to kind of keep them hooked in because you're right it's such a challenge. To in the virtual environment I think people are I think it's fair to say this zoomed out you know and just found out a little bit right oh yeah except for us on this call right now yeah yeah for sure, so how do you make it differently what sort of things did they do you guys do. [28:52] So we use the poll the polling tools right we'll use the word clouds right we'll use the contest the games and one of the things that we developed for a client that is pretty been pretty fun was. We've had this you know certified employee owner program for years that we developed a long time ago along with the guys the Bross company you know back in the 90s we created this along with them and. The last two years we had a big client in Wisconsin come to us and say about 2,500 employees we want an ongoing video training program okay for new people and for our current people to get up to speed Okay so. We worked with a professional video coming told you we do videos reported like so animated stuff and. We created three to five minute videos on different segments of their ESOP and their business so people can watch those they take a short quiz it's like five questions not top fill but the goal is right kind of reinforce the learning. [29:52] I think one of the next video. Once they get through all nine of them they earn their CEO certified employing owner certificate night we give it like a no public recognition and we just did number 10, to to recertify yourself every year so that's that's the plan of us on going and the reason for onboarding of new employees right and. They're dispersed all over the place with their 2500 employees so that's how they wanted to kind of reinforce their culture and work in that virtual environment some like that makes sense man I think that's a great nugget of stuff like weather like somebody's listen to this like, it's the way you can reinforce and reward. You know you reinforce the ESOP and you reward it with this this certification and the CEO thing is a cool way to do that and so and if you guys. [30:41] Have trademarked it but I think it's a great idea you never did we just you were kind of like an ESOP Community we don't feel like it makes you know. It came from the guys the profs they started it yeah we kind of work we're like now borrow what do you do that's cool we don't you know we're not worried about we have our own program yes no I it's a great it's a great nugget for people listening because, hey just even the concept behind it like we will you know obviously we need to do the training but give people a reason and so, if you're an employee of a company are like I'm not as I'm not part of the CEO area then I feel like I need my my badge so. It does have peer pressure to it and all that I think and and it works every you know all those angles it works together and then and then collateral like videos having those videos ready to go especially for a company that's 2,500 people right. How do you how do you get everybody in a 2500 person company on the same page it's hard enough to. We're 77 people I mean new people come in and people leave and you know you have every company has some level of turnover so. [31:47] So I think that's really fill you love like the why we have an ESOP video because they have the founder. And The Innovation committee was great and he has a dog no no lug nuts so the dog is actually in the video I made it a little pit bull anyway so it's just fun right it's fun stuff yeah totally well what if do you want to mention it all the Mitchell project you're working on. [32:11] Yeah I'll strikes quickly on that yeah um you know one of the fun things in my career as a middle doing some creative stuff right and. Just on forget the misses one thing on the game so like we've done all these games for adults and learning right and actually for me I told it's not fill that spot into actually developed a game for my kids, and then I saw license that to learning resources which is like really number one wow educational company in the country that does that was on like learning the planets in the Solar System, anyways so that led to like three more games and then that like populated back to the ESOP world you know I kind of stuff I learned over there I brought it back yeah, so the comic books another one of those for me right that we're trying to develop this ESOP story with I got this fantastic German illustrator. Who's doing the story of Mitchell's war and if you guys did you want to support it listeners you know go to LinkedIn type in Mitchell's War follow us or go to Facebook type of Mitchell's Warren like us because we're trying to get a publisher for the ESOP comic book. [33:17] Um and so that's the story it's a story of an employee buyout of course we have to have the comic book stuff right so there's a giant conspiracy right now yeah yeah I'm sure it's going to be a comic book you got yeah you got to have a bad guy and right yeah I think it's in this there's no other ESOP comic book so I think right so we'll blast know yeah it's been a blast for me and actually, again right so I'm doing this stuff with the illustrator and we're getting Pages color right now. And it's actually now coming back into my ESOP work with hey we should be doing more again visual stuff with people and having them to think through things that way so they better understand the ESOP. Yes put a blast the cross-pollination in the synergy. And I think you see that in your business to with the stuff you do with companies yeah for sure and one of the things that stick out to me just as an observation like. You have been able to build your career and business that you do around the idea of I'm going to have fun at what I do and. [34:23] I mean that like that's so evident and and the reason I bring that up is partly because I think it's awesome and I applaud you for that because I see so many people, dredging through every day of their business life or whatever they're doing for work and like you don't have to I mean do what you love to do. But I think also it says a lot about the idea behind. The culture of an ESOP and how what I love about ESOP companies is that they can they can retain a great culture. And if they're having fun doing what they're doing they're still going to keep having fun and when you compare that to I had to sell my business to some, Financial buyer who private Equity Group in the gut everybody's fun it's like why you know I mean we all you need to make enough money to pay the bills but when the end of the day. [35:13] You know it's not worth it so I applaud your ability to go and do something so creative. The comic book thing is phenomenal and and then just be a spokesperson for Aesop's like you're doing and really you are really helping people. [35:27] So and thanks Phillip I appreciate your thinking on the podcast will get more employee-owners right I mean it's just fantastic the stuff you're doing. As a truly wonderful and you know all of that on that thing earlier this week I was running a retreat for the ESOP committee members. [35:43] It's a company multiple divisions and for the first time they brought them together for like a summit meeting oh really and fill you would have loved it I mean just the energy and the excitement and enthusiasm, you know people are saying to me like hey you know I love the session, I was like you guys are the ones that are making a great you know I just kind of create this structure along with a company and I'm facilitating it but you just that energy and when people get it you know what I mean like they get ownership and they get excited yeah. Then your then you would your want to sell your company to somebody else when you can do that have this Legacy. That you do you pass on to the people I don't you build to come and with your life Phil cool it cool it is cool it but you know but I think it's true but you're not going to spend that money anyways to be honest with you they have more money than they could ever spend so why not why not do an ESOP but but I think when you're when you do an are exposed like you are and I am with the that type of energy. I think it's contagious and I think that that's part of the idea behind the podcast is to help people to see that the ESOP is much more than just a tax strategy, yeah or buy out an exit plan or a succession plan I mean it's far more than all of those things that it is those things but it's way more than that I think that. As people realize that then they'll more more people will gravitate towards the you know what an ESOP is as an option for what they need to do. [37:08] Yeah I think it's great what you're doing filled expose more people to it and help them see the benefits of that right and we know it's not right for everybody no but for a lot of companies man it's a great option and they don't know about it now so yeah they don't have people like you fill out there, doing the marketing and I blame myself for this too because I've been in the industry for 30 years so you know boo boo gym they do but, I love what you're doing because you're supposed more people the concept, and those that are attracted to it I think they'll go forward right and they'll be the greatest top companies that you'll be talking about in this podcast and five or ten years absolutely absolutely so if somebody needs to find you Jim bado how do they find you. To get what you're dating site so workplace and that's all one word workplace development, and you can see and we're always up on their racing you'll definitely somewhere all about yeah cool you can email me it's the letter J be a dios nice short name, at workplace. Or call that's fine you know we still take calls that's okay you take phone calls we still take them right and my office is 419. 427 2435 so one more time because I want to do the proper marketing Phil for 1947 24:35 but he's you know. [38:27] Hey look at watch bills if you're interested in Aesop's watch Phil's other podcasts right, you know talk to people about it sure go to go to local ESOP conference and some people from he stopped companies. And I think you're going to be like what You'll Be Wild by it as it seems like it's something that's for you absolutely yeah think about it excellent well again thank thank you so much for joining us today and I think it was very interesting what you guys are doing so, I appreciate your efforts there as well. [38:55] It's up to me feel really appreciate it and thanks for everything you're doing to get the word out there you know we need more fills so thank you Phil you're welcome all right so for everybody else we'll look forward to our next step on this journey to an ESOP have a wonderful weekend thanks bye.

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